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Topic: Patina on Lead Came...  (Read 2542 times)
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stainedinglass
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« on: March 11, 2010, 04:55:41 PM »

Hi All

Having done a couple of projects now where I've used patina on lead came I have to say I'm not overly impressed with the results.

Having read numerous articles about the 'best' way to achieve a black even finish I feel a little baffled by the end results I'm getting, that being a patchy uneven finish with spots where the patina did not seem to take to the came. Whats even worse, is after allowing it to dry and then rinsing the panel the patina seems to almost rub off as it it was only sitting on the surface of the came - several times I've had to re-apply the patina to achieve a result I'm even moderately satified with.

Using combinations of amonia / alcohol / various cleaners / wire wool / vinegar / salt to name but a few to clean off any flux residue, I don't think I could make the panel any cleaner to be honest white flag

What am I doing wrong? I'm so fustrated by this. Does lead came inherently have this problem? Am I still not cleaning it properly? Am I not applying it properly? I've tried being sparing and lavish with the patina to no avail. Is my (tap) water causing a problem?

Help me...  any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Pete  Cry
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« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2010, 08:28:13 PM »

Hi All

Having done a couple of projects now where I've used patina on lead came I have to say I'm not overly impressed with the results.

Having read numerous articles about the 'best' way to achieve a black even finish I feel a little baffled by the end results I'm getting, that being a patchy uneven finish with spots where the patina did not seem to take to the came. Whats even worse, is after allowing it to dry and then rinsing the panel the patina seems to almost rub off as it it was only sitting on the surface of the came - several times I've had to re-apply the patina to achieve a result I'm even moderately satified with.

Using combinations of amonia / alcohol / various cleaners / wire wool / vinegar / salt to name but a few to clean off any flux residue, I don't think I could make the panel any cleaner to be honest white flag

What am I doing wrong? I'm so fustrated by this. Does lead came inherently have this problem? Am I still not cleaning it properly? Am I not applying it properly? I've tried being sparing and lavish with the patina to no avail. Is my (tap) water causing a problem?

Help me...  any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Pete  Cry
All you need to do is cement the window and go over with a fine hair (natural bristle) brush.
The more you buff it the darker it gets.
Here's a video I made of a finished window...
Avoid using too much whiting that tends to strip the patina, Instead let the window set over night then buff to a dark glossy lead finish.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmH3K43ujmc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmH3K43ujmc</a>
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 08:36:46 PM by Gary » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2010, 12:58:22 AM »


All you need to do is cement the window and go over with a fine hair (natural bristle) brush.
The more you buff it the darker it gets.
Here's a video I made of a finished window...
Avoid using too much whiting that tends to strip the patina, Instead let the window set over night then buff to a dark glossy lead finish.


Oh my!! This is scary. I agree with Gary.

I.M.H.O. too much is made of black Back lit, everything that's opaque is black. The linseed oil and whiting of your cement , plus some elbow grease, will make things dark and shiny, and time will darken things further. Forget the patina.
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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2010, 09:44:12 AM »


All you need to do is cement the window and go over with a fine hair (natural bristle) brush.
The more you buff it the darker it gets.
Here's a video I made of a finished window...
Avoid using too much whiting that tends to strip the patina, Instead let the window set over night then buff to a dark glossy lead finish.


Oh my!! This is scary. I agree with Gary.

I.M.H.O. too much is made of black Back lit, everything that's opaque is black. The linseed oil and whiting of your cement , plus some elbow grease, will make things dark and shiny, and time will darken things further. Forget the patina.
What are you talking about? you always agree with me. You just like to find the smallest loopholes in my posts to tear me a new one  smack:(

Now that's scary!

Here's your chance to be at your best... I also find how fluxing the window can result in a blotchy appearance.
I use a 3" cheap paint brush, the kind with a wooden handle you find for $2 at Loews or Home Depot. I then intentionally cut the bristles to half their original length. This is now my flux applicator/lead cleaner. I don't just apply flux at the joints but rather vigorously go over the entire panel scrubbing the lead as I go. I only do an area I can solder in less than 15 minutes or so. Leaving (hydrochloric) flux on too long somehow makes soldering tougher and you need to reapply it.
Once soldering is complete I then use an old cloth rag and thoroughly wipe excess flux off the window while all along distributing flux residue throughout the whole panel. I believe this etching process of the whole window may be the reason for the incredibly uniform finish I get.
In contrast... i have witnessed students using those cheesy little flux brushes applying flux only to the joints quite sparingly. The end results (lead finish) is very blotchy. This is even more evident when using a zinc border. Be sure to flux the entire length of zinc not just where you plan to solder. Not a heavy amount of flux but more like a fine film of it. You will be amazed how uniform acid patinas take to this as well. To insure a even better finish, go over the whole zinc with a green scrubby pad with the flux still on it.
Basically... Blotchy looking finishes are caused by the inconsistent application of acids and or oxidation prior to cementing.
I'm sure there are other factors but these are the 2 most common.
To correct a blotchy window you could try cleaning it with a scrubby pad or actually go over it (vigorous but slow scrub) with a hydrochloric based liquid flux using the brush mentioned earlier. Let it sit for an hour or so then wipe down and cement again. The cement will act as a neutralizer so don't worry about the acid from the flux. When cementing... resist using too much whiting to clean/dry the window right away. Use sparingly and let the panel dry at least 6 hrs before you buff it. When finished, allow to thoroughly dry/set overnight before you do the other side.
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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2010, 12:31:52 PM »

Aha!! We begin to differ.

When I do lead, and it's not that often, I use paste flux and only where I'm going to solder. Being as I'm not doing it often, I'm not as good at achieving a neat joint as some others might be. I find that paste flux stays and works well where it's put, giving me a more consistent size and shape of joint. But we agree on the flux brush with the chopped short bristles.

I then scrub leads and solder with Neutra 5000, then proceed with cementing. My cement is 50% boiled and 50% raw linseed oil plus whiting, and usually a little lamp-black.
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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2010, 02:43:18 PM »

At least you differ on something. Wouldn't want things to get too boring around here.
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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2010, 04:51:56 PM »

Thanks for your replys  not worthy

I like the idea of getting a liquid flux all over the lead itself, currently I use a flux gel (which I'm totally happy with for projects not using patina). Nice window btw.

Neutra 5000 <--- hadn't heard of this one so I'll give that a try  ...soon I'l be able to open my own second hand cleaning products store Tongue

Cheers

Pete
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« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2010, 10:11:31 PM »

Ok, I need some instruction.  I do almost all my work in foil, and I brush the flux liberally over the piece.  I don't intentionally get flux on all the glass, but I don't try to stay off the glass either.  After I do both sides, I wash it in hot water in the bathtub with dishwashing soap, and scrub it clean with a stiff bristle brush.  That's it.  I let it dry, wipe the spots off with a cloth, and hang it up.  Sometimes I use black patina juice applied with a scrap of t-shirt after it has dried from the first washing. 
So tell, obi-wan, do i need to use whiting?  Or linseed oil? 
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« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2010, 09:16:29 AM »

Ok, I need some instruction.  I do almost all my work in foil, and I brush the flux liberally over the piece.  I don't intentionally get flux on all the glass, but I don't try to stay off the glass either.  After I do both sides, I wash it in hot water in the bathtub with dishwashing soap, and scrub it clean with a stiff bristle brush.  That's it.  I let it dry, wipe the spots off with a cloth, and hang it up.  Sometimes I use black patina juice applied with a scrap of t-shirt after it has dried from the first washing. 
So tell, obi-wan, do i need to use whiting?  Or linseed oil? 
No you don't use linseed oil for foil work. Whiting can be used to polish up a non-patina piece I guess. Most folks use a cleaner and wax.
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« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2010, 10:25:41 AM »


No you don't use linseed oil for foil work. Whiting can be used to polish up a non-patina piece I guess. Most folks use a cleaner and wax.

Again, Gary and I agree. The original post was about lead.
Foil's a whole nuther ball game.
Solder over foil needs good cleaning and neutralizing + wax and elbow grease.
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« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2010, 11:35:37 AM »

Another 2¢...
Lead is what it is. Once clean, it will be fairly dark and eventually get darker. I have worked for "high end" contractors who have requested that I darken the solder joints. Since it's all "land fill" work anyway, I do it even though I resisted at first. These folks also (sometimes) silicone the panels into the frames rather than use actual stops!

As for foiled work, I clean the same way as I do lead. Never had "white crud" or other probs. Never washed one although I will use a slightly damp rag to "rinse" a patinated piece. And I use paste flux for everything.  confused

OK, maybe 3¢.....
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« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2010, 12:30:54 PM »

Another 2¢...
Lead is what it is. Once clean, it will be fairly dark and eventually get darker. I have worked for "high end" contractors who have requested that I darken the solder joints. Since it's all "land fill" work anyway, I do it even though I resisted at first. These folks also (sometimes) silicone the panels into the frames rather than use actual stops!

As for foiled work, I clean the same way as I do lead. Never had "white crud" or other probs. Never washed one although I will use a slightly damp rag to "rinse" a patinated piece. And I use paste flux for everything.  confused

OK, maybe 3¢.....

Try to use 50/50 solder on leaded panels. You will notice it blends better than 60/40. My joints are exactly the same color as the lead when done using no patina at all except the cementing and buffing process. Patina as well (acid) will deteriorate the cement too...
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« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2010, 03:58:59 PM »


Try to use 50/50 solder on leaded panels. You will notice it blends better than 60/40. My joints are exactly the same color as the lead when done using no patina at all except the cementing and buffing process. Patina as well (acid) will deteriorate the cement too...


Gee, I agree with Gary, too!
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e hilton
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« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2010, 05:20:36 PM »

Again talking about foil work ... sorry about the hijack ... what do you use for cleaning, neutralizing, and wax?  Johnsons Paste Wax?
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« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2010, 06:01:05 PM »

Again talking about foil work ... sorry about the hijack ... what do you use for cleaning, neutralizing, and wax?  Johnsons Paste Wax?

I clean with cheap dish detergent and water. I neutralize with either baking soda and water or Neutra 5000 and I wax with Chem-o-pro - or whatever it's called now (Clarity??)
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« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2010, 06:03:35 PM »

Again talking about foil work ... sorry about the hijack ... what do you use for cleaning, neutralizing, and wax?  Johnsons Paste Wax?

Cleaning and neutralizing - CJ's Flux Remover, Neutra 5000, or Kwik-Clean.  Waxing - Clarity Stained Glass finishing Compound.

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« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2010, 11:55:35 AM »

Gary wrote:Try to use 50/50 solder on leaded panels. You will notice it blends better than 60/40. My joints are exactly the same color as the lead when done using no patina at all except the cementing and buffing process. Patina as well (acid) will deteriorate the cement too...
[/quote]

I will have to try that. Never much liked 50/50 but shouldn't be too closed-minded!
BTW: The way I use patina on solder joints will never endanger the cement, I assure you (he said somewhat defensively). Very controlled.
- Tod
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« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2010, 12:09:21 PM »


What I like about 50/50 solder on lead is...

1. It doesn't drip down under the leaves as much as 60/40 (minimizes breakage).
2. You can heat up the lead more to get a very uniform and smooth joint with 50/50.
3. The minimal shine to it than 60/40 (blends with lead)
4. The cost. And finally...
5. Discrediting all of the "pros" who claim 60/40 is for lead work. (I never understood that one) These same folks insist that glass needs to be grind for foil to stick and a bunch of other silly theories. The simple reason using 50/50 to avoid breaking glass by far a good enough reason to use it alone.
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« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2010, 01:23:45 PM »


What I like about 50/50 solder on lead is...

1. It doesn't drip down under the leaves as much as 60/40 (minimizes breakage).

If one adjusts one's working speed to it, 60/40 doesn't "drip". They are different alloys and they melt at different temperatures and have slightly different consistencies when melted. All of that can be overcome by simply treating them differently.

Quote
2. You can heat up the lead more to get a very uniform and smooth joint with 50/50.


I admit that I prefer the way 50/50 sets up and forms the joint. Is that because of the lead being heated more?? I haven't the slightest idea.

Quote
3. The minimal shine to it than 60/40 (blends with lead)

People use 60/40 for foil partly because it's shinier. In lead, dull is good.

 
Quote
5. Discrediting all of the "pros" who claim 60/40 is for lead work. (I never understood that one) These same folks insist that glass needs to be grind for foil to stick and a bunch of other silly theories.


Who are these pros that you refer to?? In my 30 years of doing stained glass, I have never heard a single person "claim 60/40 is for lead work". The closest I've ever heard to that is that one can use either, depending on their own preference. I agree with those folks. There are people who espouse some strange theories, all right, but 50/50 is for lead? Never heard of such another. I've never even heard the King of Cockamamy Theories (who shall remain namesless) say that.

Quote
The simple reason using 50/50 to avoid breaking glass by far a good enough reason to use it alone.

If it helps you avoid breakage, that's cool for you. But as mentioned back in point #1, 60/40 doesn't have to drip, so it doesn't have to cause breakage. So I'd still suggest people just use the solder with which have success and are comfortable. If someone uses 60/40 and does a lot of foil work, there's no good reason to rush out and buy a roll of 50/50 to do a few joints in lead.
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« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2010, 01:48:11 PM »


What I like about 50/50 solder on lead is...

1. It doesn't drip down under the leaves as much as 60/40 (minimizes breakage).

If one adjusts one's working speed to it, 60/40 doesn't "drip". They are different alloys and they melt at different temperatures and have slightly different consistencies when melted. All of that can be overcome by simply treating them differently.

Quote
2. You can heat up the lead more to get a very uniform and smooth joint with 50/50.


I admit that I prefer the way 50/50 sets up and forms the joint. Is that because of the lead being heated more?? I haven't the slightest idea.

Quote
3. The minimal shine to it than 60/40 (blends with lead)

People use 60/40 for foil partly because it's shinier. In lead, dull is good.

 
Quote
5. Discrediting all of the "pros" who claim 60/40 is for lead work. (I never understood that one) These same folks insist that glass needs to be grind for foil to stick and a bunch of other silly theories.


Who are these pros that you refer to?? In my 30 years of doing stained glass, I have never heard a single person "claim 60/40 is for lead work". The closest I've ever heard to that is that one can use either, depending on their own preference. I agree with those folks. There are people who espouse some strange theories, all right, but 50/50 is for lead? Never heard of such another. I've never even heard the King of Cockamamy Theories (who shall remain namesless) say that.

Quote
The simple reason using 50/50 to avoid breaking glass by far a good enough reason to use it alone.

If it helps you avoid breakage, that's cool for you. But as mentioned back in point #1, 60/40 doesn't have to drip, so it doesn't have to cause breakage. So I'd still suggest people just use the solder with which have success and are comfortable. If someone uses 60/40 and does a lot of foil work, there's no good reason to rush out and buy a roll of 50/50 to do a few joints in lead.

60/40 has a more fluid consistancy and will pass by the top leaves quicker than 50/50. If you have a "T" joint there is a greater chance of solder dripping around into the core channel of the lead and creating a button like pressure spot on the glass. This results in a greater chance for breaking glass moving the stained glass window (flipping etc.). Using 50/50 you can heat the lead came more so and get a more biting joint. I hope that was a good way to explain it. All along minimizing dripping of the solder.
The only option may be for flat lead where you may not want to heat the lead up so much so 60/40 may be a personal option here.
As for foil work I totally agree 60/40 is by far the better chioce for both it's higher strength and delicate flowability.
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