Wine Cellar Door

[Hartache]

While we are on the subject - copper is a better conductor of heat than lead.  Copper is also a better conductor of electricity than lead.  Silver is a better conductor of both than copper.  Gold is a better conductor of both than silver.  Why is all of our electrical wiring made of copper instead of silver or gold?  For the same reason that air is used as an insulator in a double-paned window.  No, silly, not because you can see through it!  Because it's cheaper!

Rebecca

[Gary]

While we are on the subject - copper is a better conductor of heat than lead.  Copper is also a better conductor of electricity than lead.  Silver is a better conductor of both than copper.  Gold is a better conductor of both than silver.  Why is all of our electrical wiring made of copper instead of silver or gold?  For the same reason that air is used as an insulator in a double-paned window.  No, silly, not because you can see through it!  Because it's cheaper!

Rebecca

Good thing stained glass isn't made with gold or we would have close to a zero thermal barrier value. (I'm learning)

Good lesson on conductivity. But... What happened to Fourier's law? Seems here that the rule of engagement change when I quote science.

Back to my simple claim that either heat or cold will loose it's thermal properties as it travels from one side of the stained glass to the other based on Fourier's law and other factors is being ignored here. What is so difficult to agree that I have a point when I claim stained glass adds a thermal barrier (how ever small or significant it is) to the installation? I apologize for using terms like "thermal break" and "insulation" that only lead to "gotcha's".

As hard as it may be at least you can admit I do have a legitimate point especially in light of me agreeing and openly admitting that an IG unit is most likely a better way to insulate the door.

I do however understand the frustration of dealing with un-checked science (stained glass insulation) and will pursue this in the field when I get a chance. I am doing a door and sidelites this way in the next 2 weeks and will take very careful readings before and after the install.

My next question is does anyone know of a good way to measure surface temperatures? I was thinking about one of those forehead thermometers???

Thanks again guys for your patience and valuable insight.

[Gary]

OK for argument sake... Lets say you put up a panel instead of the stained glass of 1/4" solid lead. A full sheet covering the whole area of the plate glass and have it lay directly against the inside glass. What would you say the inside of the lead temperature would be that touches the plate glass? Exactly the same as the outside facing the interior of the house? Or do you think the side facing the inside of the house would be warmer?

My guess based on Fourier's Law (and common sense) would say that the sides would have different temperatures.

This is simply the example I give as a thermal break or curtain etc. that the stained glass is doing. Without this solid lead panel in place a considerable amount of cool air would be felt permeating from the single pane of glass. There is no dispute here that I have seen yet that this would not be the case. Therefore why is it that stained glass is condemned as a "thermal break" barrier, curtain etc.?

I agreed from the get go that stained glass may or probably wasn't as efficient as a double paned IG unit against a single pane of glass. I merely claimed that it had helped limit the thermal transition from inside the cellar to out in the room and in reverse as Vic explains. Thank you Vic but I don't think you understood my complete analogy here.

Maybe I should of refrained from using the word insulated (actually I think I did) in describing my observations. In any event... The cellar door is at the top of the stairs where cooling is least and we are not talking a 30 degree difference either. At best the cellar is kept at 50 - 55 degrees. This was a consideration when the unit was installed.

I appreciate all of your insight Vic and Rebecca. Dialog and "in depth thought" goes a long way solving issues and building a better understanding for all.
Thanks again.

Your words from reply 14 "my guess is again the volume of lead that absorbs the inside room temperature and holds it in place." This IS why, your last reply  "Therefore why is it that stained glass is condemned as a "thermal break" barrier, curtain etc.?", stained glass is NOT a thermal break. A thermal break, if you bothered to read the definition link I posted,does NOT transmit or hold  temperature. It blocks the temperature

I went back and read the article on a "thermal break" and stand corrected... I did use the term accurately in describing my stained glass from the start.

Thanks Vic 

[Vic Rothman]

While we are on the subject - copper is a better conductor of heat than lead.  Copper is also a better conductor of electricity than lead.  Silver is a better conductor of both than copper.  Gold is a better conductor of both than silver.  Why is all of our electrical wiring made of copper instead of silver or gold?  For the same reason that air is used as an insulator in a double-paned window.  No, silly, not because you can see through it!  Because it's cheaper!

Rebecca

Good thing stained glass isn't made with gold or we would have close to a zero thermal barrier value. (I'm learning)

Good lesson on conductivity. But... What happened to Fourier's law? Seems here that the rule of engagement change when I quote science.

Back to my simple claim that either heat or cold will loose it's thermal properties as it travels from one side of the stained glass to the other based on Fourier's law and other factors is being ignored here. What is so difficult to agree that I have a point when I claim stained glass adds a thermal barrier (how ever small or significant it is) to the installation? I apologize for using terms like "thermal break" and "insulation" that only lead to "gotcha's".

As hard as it may be at least you can admit I do have a legitimate point especially in light of me agreeing and openly admitting that an IG unit is most likely a better way to insulate the door.

I do however understand the frustration of dealing with un-checked science (stained glass insulation) and will pursue this in the field when I get a chance. I am doing a door and sidelites this way in the next 2 weeks and will take very careful readings before and after the install.

My next question is does anyone know of a good way to measure surface temperatures? I was thinking about one of those forehead thermometers???

Thanks again guys for your patience and valuable insight.

http://www.hukseflux.com/campaign/thermalConductivityMeasurement/rValueWall.html?gclid=CPzO2oOe364CFUZN4AodiSNr

OR a Non-Contact Infrared Thermometer

[Hartache]

Good lesson on conductivity. But... What happened to Fourier's law? Seems here that the rule of engagement change when I quote science.

Fourier's Law is what I have been explaining over and over.

Back to my simple claim that either heat or cold will loose it's thermal properties as it travels from one side of the stained glass to the other based on Fourier's law and other factors is being ignored here. What is so difficult to agree that I have a point when I claim stained glass adds a thermal barrier (how ever small or significant it is) to the installation? I apologize for using terms like "thermal break" and "insulation" that only lead to "gotcha's".

Heat is heat and cold is the absence of heat.  Neither loses its thermal properties.  Heat travels to cold and theoretically, everything will eventually be the same temperature.  There will be no energy left in the universe.  The universe will be VOID as it was at the beginning of time.  Until that time, everything still has thermal properties, none are lost. 

I have not said that you are wrong, just that the "thermal barrier" (insulation value) of the stained glass is very, very small.  That is what I have said all along, and yet, you continue to argue.

My next question is does anyone know of a good way to measure surface temperatures? I was thinking about one of those forehead thermometers???

Search here:  http://www.omega.com/

Rebecca

[Grunt]

Why don't you leave the wine door open  24/7 for say a week while measuring the AC/HVAC outputs, then leave it closed 24/7 for a week while measuring the AC/HVAC outputs, compare the readings and you will know the effect in the real world not theoretical world.  

Steve

[Hartache]

Why don't you leave the wine door open  24/7 for say a week while measuring the AC/HVAC outputs, then leave it closed 24/7 for a week while measuring the AC/HVAC outputs, compare the readings and you will know the effect in the real world not theoretical world.  

Steve

And monitor the electric and/or gas bill.  Do this with IC unit, with stained glass, with single pane of glass, and with the door open.

Rebecca

[Gary]

I think I'll resort to the simplest technique I know... The sense of touch.
Wait a minute I already tried that (which provoked a public stoning).  

All kidding aside this subject did warrant an in depth analysis with terrific insight by all sides I may add.  

Thanks again...

PS... Here you go G  

[Vic Rothman]

Wine needs to kept at about 60degrees temperature with an RH of about 65%. If these numbers are maintainable in this cellar then the type of glass used and it's R value is not a big deal.
The real question here has to do with responsibility. Gary installed a window the best way for him, without understanding what the possible ramifications of his actions were. If the refrigeration equipment in the cellar can not maintain the proper atmosphere inside because of Gary's actions, then the cellar will not work and the wine will go bad. The prudent/professional thing to do would have been to contact the cellar installer and ASK about removing the IG unit and the best way to install the stained glass

[Gary]

While we are on the subject - copper is a better conductor of heat than lead.  Copper is also a better conductor of electricity than lead.  Silver is a better conductor of both than copper.  Gold is a better conductor of both than silver.  Why is all of our electrical wiring made of copper instead of silver or gold?  For the same reason that air is used as an insulator in a double-paned window.  No, silly, not because you can see through it!  Because it's cheaper!

Rebecca

Good thing stained glass isn't made with gold or we would have close to a zero thermal barrier value. (I'm learning)

Good lesson on conductivity. But... What happened to Fourier's law? Seems here that the rule of engagement change when I quote science.

Back to my simple claim that either heat or cold will loose it's thermal properties as it travels from one side of the stained glass to the other based on Fourier's law and other factors is being ignored here. What is so difficult to agree that I have a point when I claim stained glass adds a thermal barrier (how ever small or significant it is) to the installation? I apologize for using terms like "thermal break" and "insulation" that only lead to "gotcha's".

As hard as it may be at least you can admit I do have a legitimate point especially in light of me agreeing and openly admitting that an IG unit is most likely a better way to insulate the door.

I do however understand the frustration of dealing with un-checked science (stained glass insulation) and will pursue this in the field when I get a chance. I am doing a door and sidelites this way in the next 2 weeks and will take very careful readings before and after the install.

My next question is does anyone know of a good way to measure surface temperatures? I was thinking about one of those forehead thermometers???

Thanks again guys for your patience and valuable insight.

http://www.hukseflux.com/campaign/thermalConductivityMeasurement/rValueWall.html?gclid=CPzO2oOe364CFUZN4AodiSNr

OR a Non-Contact Infrared Thermometer

That's a sweet looking toy that Huksflux thinghy. Probably cost big bucks $$$.
I do remember seeing an AC dude measuring air vents with a radar gun contraption. I bet it was one of those infrared measuring devices. I'll check somehow...

[educate86]

OMG, HELP, WOW -- I read all of these posts and my brain may be over heated from excessive neuronal activity (just kidding).  Lets consider one more thing.  The wine is kept DOWN in the cellar and the door is at the TOP of a staircase.  Warm air, in theory will stay closer to the top near the door and the cool air will sink down or remain down in the cellar.  Unless there is a very effective mixing of the the air in the enclosed space, any additional heat gain through the stained glass door compared to the IG unit may actually be minimal so the refrigeration unit in the wine cellar may not cycle much more frequently than before the door change.  As Rebecca says, one would have to measure run time to know precisely.  IMHO the possibility of a slightly higher electric bill is a small trade off to being able to look at that beautiful door.  I am staying tuned.

[Vic Rothman]

OMG, HELP, WOW -- I read all of these posts and my brain may be over heated from excessive neuronal activity (just kidding).  Lets consider one more thing.  The wine is kept DOWN in the cellar and the door is at the TOP of a staircase.  Warm air, in theory will stay closer to the top near the door and the cool air will sink down or remain down in the cellar.  Unless there is a very effective mixing of the the air in the enclosed space, any additional heat gain through the stained glass door compared to the IG unit may actually be minimal so the refrigeration unit in the wine cellar may not cycle much more frequently than before the door change.  As Rebecca says, one would have to measure run time to know precisely.  IMHO the possibility of a slightly higher electric bill is a small trade off to being able to look at that beautiful door.  I am staying tuned.

I must have missed the post about the wine in a cellar and a staircase. "wine cellar" is a generic term for a place to store wine. Not necessarily an actual cellar  (like below ground)

[educate86]

I have visited a few wine cellars and they were truly cellars below ground level.  My comment was based on my experience so that is how I "saw" it.

[Gary]

If you opened the door and fell down the stairs it would hurt, a lot. Unless a bottle on Don what's his name accidently opened up and started dripping in your lip wound. 

Sorry I failed to mention that.

[Hartache]

As long as it's not a cask of Amontillado.

Rebecca

[jackie]

yes but Poe's favorite drink was abstinthe....... and do we want to be chained to the celler and be dead....

[Hartache]

yes but Poe's favorite drink was abstinthe....... and do we want to be chained to the celler and be dead....

 

[Hartache]

OMG, HELP, WOW -- I read all of these posts and my brain may be over heated from excessive neuronal activity (just kidding).  Lets consider one more thing.  The wine is kept DOWN in the cellar and the door is at the TOP of a staircase.  Warm air, in theory will stay closer to the top near the door and the cool air will sink down or remain down in the cellar.  Unless there is a very effective mixing of the the air in the enclosed space, any additional heat gain through the stained glass door compared to the IG unit may actually be minimal so the refrigeration unit in the wine cellar may not cycle much more frequently than before the door change.  As Rebecca says, one would have to measure run time to know precisely.  IMHO the possibility of a slightly higher electric bill is a small trade off to being able to look at that beautiful door.  I am staying tuned.

Good point!  And engineers are taught to OVER-design, so even if the house is located in Death Valley and the HVAC unit dies, the cooler should be designed to keep the wine from being ruined.  It will just cost the owner a bundle.  And where is the thermostat that controls the cooler refrigeration unit located?  If it is located near the door, the wine will be TOO COLD, but if it is located near the wine, the air near the ceiling (and the door) will be very warm...

Rebecca