Gotcha.

You might find this hard to believe, Gary, but a hanging or "semi hard" installation need not look like crap or look "tacked up". It can be made to look very "professional", if done well. Frankly, I'm getting a little tired of your continual railing against anything that isn't the way Somers Tiffany would have done it. If you or your friends can't do a professional looking job, without tearing apart well constructed, useful windows, that's your problem. It ain't the way it is for those who can do it well.

The purpose of an IG window is not to protect against flying rocks, it's to insulate. You'd think that even a Somers would understand that. It may make no big diff in Carolina, but insulated windows are important in this neck of the woods. At any rate, it's unlikely that a stone from a lawnmower would break both layers of glass and then go on an break a third (the stained glass). If the IG glass is broken by a flying rock, replace it then, but throwing out a perfectly good insulated window is just not something that a non-somers want to do, or recommend if it's not necessary.


Sorry, Gary. You don't get to be the arbitrator of what is and is not "professional".


Yes, by all means, let's go back to the original question, before you started making judgements as to what constituted "professional" work, and putting down any method different from your own.

At some point you will perhaps recognize the difference between an artistic window which actually forms the physical window and is part of the house and a piece of art, created to display in a window. Both are professional, like framed paintings and murals.

I prefer one. You prefer the other. That's no problem. The difference is that I can accept either as artistic and professional. You? Not so much. You're sounding too much like the Guru of Victoria. Your way is not the only way.

A while back, you censured a member for talking down on other persons methods. Practice what you preach.

My point is equally clear.
"Your" way is no more professional than other ways, except in your mind, which is open to no ideas that aren't your's.

Why you think it is more "professional" to tear apart a perfectly good purpose-built window, and replace it with something that doesn't fulfil the purpose as well, is beyond me. You can do things the way you like. I don't give a hoot in hell, but don't give me "more professional". That's plain bull-s**t.

There is nothing unprofessional about doing a good job, at a good price - and not wasting the customer's money on things he doesn't need or want.

Gary,  It seems to me that you ought to take the man's experience into consideration.  Frankly,
it sounds to me like he knows what he is doing.  Whereas, when you say things like:
you DON'T sound like you do (sorry, but that's the way that I interpreted what you said).  I would never recommend anyone install stained glass onto or into a sash, even permanently and caulked up the wazoo.  It just takes too much of a pounding being opened and closed.

So, knowing you are a brilliant stained glass artist and you have obviously done some installs.  I'm assuming you said that because you wanted to cover all the bases and you weren't really suggesting someone actually do it. Right?

Wading into these turbulent waters further.  I think y'all are agreeing with each other and you just don't realize it.  All of you are listening to your customer and assessing their needs:  If they sound like they will be moving soon, a non-permanent solution would be best.  If they have four little kids and lots of balls, shoes, bicycles, skateboards, etc. are being thrown about near the glass, then sandwich that baby in laminated glass so nothing can get to it (Graham, the rock from the lawnmower was just an example).  You could even put some iron bars on top if you thought it was warranted.  (Just kidding).

Personally, I lean toward a non-permanent install with a wood frame.  But I've got a husband who is very handy with a router and I LOVE the look of wood, so it's easy for me to say that.

Back to the legalities, (Hmm...  I seem to get caught up in that a lot. Interesting ).  I spent hours trying to find the law covering the height on having glass in entryways out here in California and couldn't find it.  I tried emailing different city building departments with only one response, asking me for photos of the front of the house so he could see if it would match the neighborhood!  I'm still hoping to contact a glazier friend, as I'm sure he can tell me (I just have to find his business card... ummm...  not sure where I put it.)  So, I'll have to post about that later, for anyone who's interested.  Maybe nobody is.

It's getting late.  Reading y'all yelling at each other has worn me out.  Thank you for reading my post.  Now I'm going to go hide behind something and duck.

Hooray!  Thank you for the info Gary.  That was driving me crazy.  It seems to be talking about larger windows, but I bet it is the same for sidelights.

But I disagree with you on the movable sash window.  I don't care if you have the balance adjusted correctly.  There is just too much potential for cracking in the opening and closing of them.  Putting stained glass in the fixed one would be fine.  But, I'm sorry.  I guess on the movable one we'll just have to disagree.
 

Gary wrote: "I am very confident with Tod's install abilities just not too agreeable with hanging windows."
Thanks for that, Gary. I guess we just have didifference of approach, then. I am open to using the free-hanging or semi-permanent or permanent installation, depending on the client's wishes and what best serves the needs of the situation.

My concern was starting to be that you seemed to be saying that only panels installed into a building could be considered to have been done to "professional" standards. Some leaded glass is windows, some is "autonomous panels" and some falls in between or even 'way outside. In fact, if it gets hung in a frame, is it really a window? Oh, darn, how about those antique shoppers who buy a leaded glass window still in its frame and hang that?!  

As rainbowreaction points out, though, it's important to listen to the customer (or client) and meet their needs in a professional way. Thanks, r/r, for making that point more clearly than I could.

I have to add that I absolutely love seeing the texture of leaded glass on the exterior of a building. Whether clear sidelights which have settled so the glass is a bit out of plane and they sparkle and reflect like faceted jewels or large church windows with hunderds or thousands of pieces where the web of lead seems to bind together the openings in the walls, adding a mysterious texture to the outside. Take a look at the "monolithic" clear protective glazing on most stained glass installations now and the vintage feature with its particular charm is completely lost while the huge, nearly perfect reflection takes its place. Too bad, in my opinion, but understandably necesary at the same time. Alas.

Finally, for the moment, yes, sometimes you do have to install leaded glass into movable sash. In a restoration situationn, it almost always has to go back where it came from. Some clients (or customers) really need to have their panels in a sash. I've put them into double hung and casement type sash but never into any vinyl, mainly, I suppose, because I took time away from glass from the end of the 1980's until early this century. I basically missed the 90's when vinyl may have been gaining popularity. Working in the northeastern USA where we have lots of old housing stock may have affected that, too, I guess. Frankly, I think vinyl windows are icky but they do have some sweet advantages.

'Nuff 4 now - Tod

PS: Graham's post landed while I was composing but I'm going to post mine anyway. I know it doesn't address issues he brings up. Sometimes, the internet time-line is just challenging to follow.

See... Just like that. 

Gary

I like the idea of using the off heart zinc. I have a installation coming up where I think that might work really well. I've been searching for it at various places but can't seem to find any. Can you point me in a direction for a supplier?

Thanks in advance
Lynn

Perfect Alan! Thanks so much.

Lynn