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Topic: Installing Panel on Existing Window  (Read 2642 times)
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AuntieLynn
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« on: July 21, 2010, 02:30:20 PM »
So what is everyone's preferred method to install a stained glass panel on an existing window?

Glass clips, wood trim, glazier points and putty, silicone???

I've read that some people use lead came as a frame instead of zinc because it can be shaved down if the window opening is exactly square. Now that seems like a great idea after I'd had to sand down a couple of window sashes!! I have always used zinc before because I thought it would give more support.

I like the look of using trim (haven't done that before but have a homeowner who wants to try it) but how should it be installed to provide adequate air ventilation?

Seems like each window I've done presents it's own problems - or should I optimistically say challenges Smiley

I can't wait to hear the ideas from all of you!

Lynn
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Graham
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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2010, 06:29:40 PM »
My own preference is to not install it ON the existing window, but to hang it in front of the existing window.

1) measurement needn't be as precise
2) condensation and ventilation are not even part of the equation
3) the new panel isn't part of the window, so it can be moved wherever you like.
4) the integrity (water-proof, insulation etc) of the original window is intact

I prefer a "hard metal" (zinc, copper, brass) frame for this.
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DoOver
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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2010, 04:58:50 PM »
Had I to do it over again, I would go with Grahams method with the sidelights I did sometime back on my own house.  Pictures posted somewhere here.

I'm sure folks with way more experience will comment but here's what I did with my sidelights in my house.  Both were 12x80 and all that was in there was tempered glass and some really bad curtains.  I made the windows that I wanted in there using lead with a 1/2" H came border.  Pulled the quarter round and gently removed the tempered glass.  By this time, the putty holding that glass in had given up.  I cleaned the surface the edges of the new windows would seat into, drilled a couple of vent holes top and bottom to allow some air circulation, caulked the frame in silicone and put in the new glass. No trimming of the came was necessary as my measuring was pretty good which surprised the crap out of me.  Then I put in spacers and siliconed in the original tempered glass on the outside. New quarter round and done.

As I said, knowing what I know now and where I want to go with that entry in the future, I would have recaulked the clear tempered glass and hung the sidelights on the inside like G says.  Now I want to move the door over and put in an arched door, knock out the wall and do the whole rest of the entry wall in dalle de verre. 

Don
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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2010, 05:12:16 PM »
Quote from: DoOver on July 22, 2010, 04:58:50 PM
Had I to do it over again, I would go with Grahams method with the sidelights I did sometime back on my own house.  Pictures posted somewhere here.

I'm sure folks with way more experience will comment but here's what I did with my sidelights in my house.  Both were 12x80 and all that was in there was tempered glass and some really bad curtains.  I made the windows that I wanted in there using lead with a 1/2" H came border.  Pulled the quarter round and gently removed the tempered glass.  By this time, the putty holding that glass in had given up.  I cleaned the surface the edges of the new windows would seat into, drilled a couple of vent holes top and bottom to allow some air circulation, caulked the frame in silicone and put in the new glass. No trimming of the came was necessary as my measuring was pretty good which surprised the crap out of me.  Then I put in spacers and siliconed in the original tempered glass on the outside. New quarter round and done.

As I said, knowing what I know now and where I want to go with that entry in the future, I would have recaulked the clear tempered glass and hung the sidelights on the inside like G says.  Now I want to move the door over and put in an arched door, knock out the wall and do the whole rest of the entry wall in dalle de verre. 

Don

What was wrong with the way you did it? Sounds OK to me less the venting holes.
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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2010, 05:39:15 PM »
Quote from: Gary on July 22, 2010, 05:12:16 PM

What was wrong with the way you did it? Sounds OK to me less the venting holes.


Absolutely nothing wrong with it other than everyone that sees it wants me to do theirs now. Good problem to have if you are Gary and do this for a living.  Bad problem if you're Don and barely have enough time to finish one decent project a month at this point in time.  They're solid as heck, look great, cut way down on the drafts and heat transfer in the entry.  As I said, I want to knock out the entire wall now which means all that extra install work will be wasted at some point.  No biggie really.  I really wont have time or $$ to get involved in a major remodel anytime soon.  A 4x8 wall of dalle glass wont be cheap or a weekend project. 

I know the venting is a topic for debate but I felt it was better to have and not need, than to need and not have. My house.  My windows.  My rules.

D.
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Graham
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2010, 06:02:24 PM »
Quote from: DoOver on July 22, 2010, 05:39:15 PM
I felt it was better to have and not need, than to need and not have. My house.  My windows.  My rules.

D.

Words to live by!!

* my_house_my_rules.jpg (28.9 KB, 250x250 - viewed 162 times.)
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rainbowreaction
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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2010, 04:24:52 AM »
You might want to check with the local building codes.  I'm not an expert, but I vaguely remember something about a minimum height requirement for glass in entryways here in California.  (You can't have glass all the way to the ground).  Which would restrict what you could do with a sidelight.  I did a quick check on the internet, but didn't find it tonight.  I'll have to look tomorrow.

1 am and I gotta get some sleep.

zzzzzzzz Cloud 9
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Gary
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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2010, 08:01:56 AM »
Quote from: DoOver on July 22, 2010, 05:39:15 PM
Quote from: Gary on July 22, 2010, 05:12:16 PM

What was wrong with the way you did it? Sounds OK to me less the venting holes.


Absolutely nothing wrong with it other than everyone that sees it wants me to do theirs now. Good problem to have if you are Gary and do this for a living.  Bad problem if you're Don and barely have enough time to finish one decent project a month at this point in time.  They're solid as heck, look great, cut way down on the drafts and heat transfer in the entry.  As I said, I want to knock out the entire wall now which means all that extra install work will be wasted at some point.  No biggie really.  I really wont have time or $$ to get involved in a major remodel anytime soon.  A 4x8 wall of dalle glass wont be cheap or a weekend project. 

I know the venting is a topic for debate but I felt it was better to have and not need, than to need and not have. My house.  My windows.  My rules.

D.
It's not the venting I question, rather drilling holes. You can properly vent using spacers and a dry set or glazing.
Most glass installs can be done professionally without using frames and hanging. Use frames for off size pieces or if you cannot install otherwise.
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DoOver
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2010, 04:28:55 PM »
Quote from: rainbowreaction on July 23, 2010, 04:24:52 AM
You might want to check with the local building codes.  I'm not an expert, but I vaguely remember something about a minimum height requirement for glass in entryways here in California.  (You can't have glass all the way to the ground).  Which would restrict what you could do with a sidelight.  I did a quick check on the internet, but didn't find it tonight.  I'll have to look tomorrow.


California?  I’m in N. Texas.  Except for a little foundation shift from building everything on clay, stuff here tends to stay where it was put.  The house was built with ground to 6'6" high sidelights as do many around these parts.  I just replaced what was there with something else.  However, when I do get a round tuit, I will consult with others with regards to tearing out a sizeable chunk of my house to put in glass. 

Don
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Graham
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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2010, 06:23:28 PM »
Texas has building codes???
You're sh***in' me, right??
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« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2010, 11:50:27 PM »
I have never done an install.  I always make mine to be removed.  So far all my commission work the people have wanted the ability to take the panel out of the window if they wanted to, and in case they sell their home

One person insisted on a permanent install and I told them about the local glass shop, her head ache not mine.  And boy am I glad, she said the person became the customer from, well you know where LOL, and btw, I got a finders fee to boot lol

Good luck Auntie Lynn, hope you let us know what you end up doing
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Graham
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« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2010, 02:53:28 PM »
Quote from: JoanFrances on July 23, 2010, 11:50:27 PM
I have never done an install.  I always make mine to be removed.  So far all my commission work the people have wanted the ability to take the panel out of the window if they wanted to, and in case they sell their home


I always recommend hanging, as opposed to hard install, and for the most part, customer's agree. I have also "resized a few window panels and sidelights to fit a new house.

I highly recommend against any replacement of an insulated dual/paned window or sidelight to accommodate stained glass. Leave the double glass in place - it's there for a purpose!
With double paned sidelights and door panels, I often do what one might call a "semi-hard" (stop giggling!!) installation i.e. securely held, but easy to remove.

I build the panel to the exact size. Then add a 1/2" or 3/4" hard-metal frame (usually but not always brass), through which a few well placed holes are drilled and matching screws can be applied straight through into the window frame. Even without venting, I've found that there's no condencation problems, buy that may not be the case in some extreme climate areas.
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« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2010, 05:27:24 PM »
Quote from: Graham on July 23, 2010, 06:23:28 PM
Texas has building codes???
You're sh***in' me, right??

Suprised me too and I live here.  Had a new HVAC system installed this past spring. Swear to God, the inspector finished his walkthru, spat on my grass, picked up his Dale Earnhart clipboard and said, "Them boys 'pear to have done a fine job".  horse

I think if your house has wheels, you're exempt...and a target 

Don
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« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2010, 08:16:34 PM »
Quote from: DoOver on July 24, 2010, 05:27:24 PM
Quote from: Graham on July 23, 2010, 06:23:28 PM
Texas has building codes???
You're sh***in' me, right??

Suprised me too and I live here.  Had a new HVAC system installed this past spring. Swear to God, the inspector finished his walkthru, spat on my grass, picked up his Dale Earnhart clipboard and said, "Them boys 'pear to have done a fine job".  horse

I think if your house has wheels, you're exempt...and a target 

Don
Sounds like the inspectors here in NC  laugh
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Tod B.
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« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2010, 10:28:15 PM »
I agree with Graham on the hang vs install, "temporary" vs "permanent". It's fairly easy to convince customers that it's a good idea: it's cheaper, more logical, more energy efficient with less risk. It can be taken with you if you move, removed for cleaning or even relocating within the house. As Graham points out, it can look "installed", too!

My preference is to have an attractive wooden frame made; I feel that for most larger panels the hard cames available to us are not appropriate. However, I do occasionally use them for panels under three square feet, more or less.... no rules, I make these decisions sort of intuitively.

And, yes, I have made and installed many, many windows in buildings, public and private. - Tod
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AuntieLynn
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« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2010, 12:53:13 AM »
I guess I was thinking about a "semi-permanent" installation. Not replacing a thermopane window rather installing a panel in front of a window. And rather than just hanging the panel, a method to keep the panel place in front of the window.
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« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2010, 07:33:19 AM »
Quote from: Tod B. on July 24, 2010, 10:28:15 PM
I agree with Graham on the hang vs install, "temporary" vs "permanent". It's fairly easy to convince customers that it's a good idea: it's cheaper, more logical, more energy efficient with less risk. It can be taken with you if you move, removed for cleaning or even relocating within the house. As Graham points out, it can look "installed", too!

My preference is to have an attractive wooden frame made; I feel that for most larger panels the hard cames available to us are not appropriate. However, I do occasionally use them for panels under three square feet, more or less.... no rules, I make these decisions sort of intuitively.

And, yes, I have made and installed many, many windows in buildings, public and private. - Tod

I just helped a fellow stained glasser install a window he made. The panel was installed in front of the existing window unit that is insulated. That's all fine however as most homes today the IG (insulated glass) have grids. IMHO the install looked like crap being you can see the grids behind the stained glass. It is so easy to remove the insulated glass and replace it with 1/4" lami with a weatherproof set and dry install the stained glass on the inside. If you have the room and if you can replace the IG with a narrower unit as well. The IG units are so cheap to buy it doesn't make sense otherwise.

I have this problem with spending hours on a stained glass window and throwing the installation into the wind. The final stage (install) should look as professional as possible avoiding a tacked up look.
If a client specifically requests this then go with it. I would again opt to have them save the old IG and have them call a glazier to remove the stained glass and put back the old glass if they move.
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« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2010, 10:34:54 AM »
It seems like it could go without saying that certain extenuating circumstances, like internal grids, will demand different solutions.

Not sure, Gary, why you choose to quote my last post and then say "...throwing the installation into the wind." An installation should, indeed look very finished and professional or we've wasted everyone's time and money! - Tod
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« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2010, 11:34:33 AM »
Quote from: Tod B. on July 25, 2010, 10:34:54 AM
It seems like it could go without saying that certain extenuating circumstances, like internal grids, will demand different solutions.

Not sure, Gary, why you choose to quote my last post and then say "...throwing the installation into the wind." An installation should, indeed look very finished and professional or we've wasted everyone's time and money! - Tod
I quote often (maybe too much)
Whenever anyone agrees with Graham the red flags go up! Just kidding...
Point is I do my best to try to convince a customer to the best solution and never would suggest hanging a panel or tacking it over a window if a solid install is an option. The only option I will agree with from the (throw into the wind) cheaper, logical, energy efficient, less risk, take it with you, removable and relocating around the house is the move around the house idea but this is kind of weird  Duh

To go a step further I suggest to customers to use 1/4" lami on the exterior to add protection to the stained glass. The only downside using heavier materials is when installed into a sash with weak balances you now have to beef them up to compensate for the added weight.
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« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2010, 12:13:47 PM »
I would say that moving panels around the house is probably the least likely event, too.

Gary: What do you mean about "weak balances"? - Tod
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